Bhagavad Gita Chap 2.12

ashOchyAn anvashOchastvam prajnyAAvAdAmscha bhAshase

gatAsUnschagatAsUnscha nAnushOchanti panditAh|

No one should be sad because of someone dying.

Krishna was born 6 months before Arjuna. He said, “There is no question that I was existing even before the 70 years and 6 months from the present. You also existed before the 70 years since you were born.

Think of the point before birth? Think about what happens after death?

We do not know about the above two.

We only know the present time. We do not know from where we came and where are going to?

If one knows about it well and truely then they will never feel overwhelmed with grief.

Krishna say ,”Take me for example whom you know that I am above death. You know that I am above death. Understand that I am above death.”

Not just me, but you too and all the princes,kings gathered here.

Since this is a concept of timelessness, it is difficult to understand and is not in the grasp of our conscious mind or experience. Maybe in the fringes of experiences one does experience a taste of the timeless state.For example : life after life, near death experience, the experience of rebirth in which past birth is vividly remembered.

nityo nityonaam chetanashchetanaanaam.He is the nitya for all nityas and the chetana for all chetanas, The difference about the nityatva of Krishna and chetana shakti of Hari is told in this shruthi vaakya. The nityatva of PAramatma is different from others but the one fact remains that there are many nityas and He is the controller of all these nityas.

Most people find it difficult to understand the concept of timelessness for the soul. The soul is eternal but takes on different forms  which are temporary.

But there is one Supreme who does not have this transmigration, who controls all the others.

ajasya naabhou …. Shruthi says ,” He who has no birth gave birth to the lotus, …

puram ekaadasha dwaaram ajasyaavagrachetasah

The unborn Supreme is the master of this deha and He makes the jiva to reside in the body and then pulls it out , whenever He decides the time is up.

The soul who resides in the body is not the owner of the body and resides in it only till the unborn eternal Supreme decides so. Every birth and death makes sense in view of this, the unborn Supreme controller who is pure existence.

The life does not make any sense if there is no question of one Supreme entity who is the owner of all this and is the most compassionate one who never is born into any deha but is always independently existing on its won always.

This verse also declares that time is not bounded. It is infinite. Jivas exist at all times. The concept of infinite brahmandas and infinite jivas who are all controlled by this one aja who never is born or is never under the control of anyone.

Shri Purandara dasara gadya says,”anantakOTi brahmAnda naayaka”

From this it becomes clear that Bharathiya Vaidika tatva shastra has the opinion that jivas are not created at all. They exist eternally.

The creation process is always continuously there. It will continue always and there is no end to it just as there is no beginning.

This verse also clearly points to the plurality of the souls and the uniqueness of God as One Supreme being. Madhwa siddhaanta’s postulates of one Supreme being, many dependent souls is seen in the gita verse.

Bhagavantha does not create the jiva but He makes it bloom and flower. Whatever the ability of the soul, that is nourished and nurtured by Hari even as a gardener sows a seed and enables its growth by ensuring a suitable environment.

tOTiganu bhUmiyoLu bIjavayoLu bIjava

nATabEkeMdenuta hitadali

mOTeyiM nIretti sasigaLa saMtaisuvaMte

pATu baDadale jagadi jIvara

ghOTakAsyanu sR^ijisi yOgyate

dATagoDadale saluhutippanu saRvakAladali….HKAS_16-12

Sri Jagannatha dasaru proclaims,”The jiva is like a seed sown by a gardener. Just as the gardener just waters and provides an environment to the seed. Yet the seeds grow into different plants bearing sweet, sour or bitter fruits. The water, mud,sun and everything have been consistently the sa,e. He did not pour sweet water into the mango seed neither didi he feed the bittergourd plant with bitter water. The essene of the seed contributes to the fruits it bears.

 

Chap 2.18

To Arjuna’s query about why he should engage in this war which appeared as if he is doing wrong by killing his grandfather and teacher etc. Krishna replies taking if from

a)the thought process of Arjuna is flawed. So he should start thinking in a proper way.

One should not think of the deha as the permanent and that it is temporary. Then he said that the excessive attachment to the pleasures and the excessive despise of the negative expereinces

Which are all eternal are discussed . There he discusses the kalataha vyaapti and deshataha vyApti and finally states that those that are deshataha vyaapti will definitely be kalatah vyaapti. The other way is not true . An eternal thing like the jiva has vyapti in time but definitely not in space. While the space which exists everywhere is there for all time. The Veda, akshara,varna etc are also in all space at all times and hence are also eternal and all pervading. This all pervading entities are stated before as Asatmeaning Prakruthi-primordial matter. and “sat” -Paramatma.

Then one more question comes into being – Why should anyone at all pray to God?After all if the jiva is himself nitya then why should he pray or do work /seva to Paramatma. That is answered here. Jivas are not just aswatantra but, they have deha haani and dukha praapti, so the jiva beseeches the Bhagavantha who is not just vyapta in kala and desha  but  is free from any dosha (vivdavaada dosha-swaroopa naasha,deha naasha, dukha praapti and apornata) and who has compassion and will uplift the jiva.

antavanta ime dehah nityasyOkta shareerinah

anAshina apramEya tasmaat yudhasva bhArata

“These bodies are all perishable but the one who has dorned the body is definitely eternal-nitya. So you as the jiva should perform the knowing well that Paramatma is flawless, lossless and infinite.

This extends to all jivas that all work should be done to serve Krishna the flawless.

Here the the question of the body being the vehicle for the jiva is destroyed so what is the jiva is also destroyed. That does not happen. The jiva being different from the body is definitely existing. How so ? It is because the jiva is a reflextion of the Paramatma . In that case the jiva should have a reflecting medium in which it is getting reflected. Here the reflecting medium is the jiva’s swaroopa which is nitya. This is quite complex and the a new concept .In the world the mirror is the reflector and the image is jada. Here both a chetana which is the jiva.

Now there are two possible ways in which the jiva can become non-existent.

1)IF the reflecting medium is destroyed

2) IF the object is moved away from the reflecting medium then also.

But in this case,both are not possilbe as the jiva is the reflecting medium and that has already been stated that it is eternal. Then the second objection is handled. Paramatma is “avinAshi” there is no place where He does not pervade in His infiniteness. Hence there is no question of the separation of the soul’s swaroopa from Paramatma who is always everythere. So this pratibimba of God is unique and eternal.

Now the two words ‘anAshino apramEya” are mainly implied for God while it is implied for the jiva in a limited way.

Acharyaru states and re-affirms that there is no physical body that is free from death. Howsoever great or big the swaroopa is it still has only a perishable body. For that the shloka starts with antavanta ime deha. Then the word nityasya qualifies the eternality of the one in the body- Here the sharira- which means sheeryate iti shareera and also that this eternality of the jiva is dependent as it is a reflection of the Paramatma.

the term nitya is being given to the shareerinah whose deha is destroyed ,yet the soul lives on. How so ? It is because it is the reflection of the Supreme nitya and hence obtains the name “nitya too. The word shareerinah clearly shows the lack of independence of the jiva in obtaining a body or discarding it and suffer from sorrow. This is quite obvious and is seen in that situation as well as from the standpoint of any person in samsaara.There are many many jivas and all of them are eternal. And jiva does not pervade all space or all gunas is seen from this. This clearly shows that the jiva is dependent and this quite an obvious fact .

So the independent who is the controller should be understood and the war should be fought because that is the right method to propitate Him by whose grace the dukha nivritti, desha naasha etc can be over.

So then who is the one who gives it this body is stated as “nitya” Paramatma who is “anAshi apramEya”. He is lossless and never has any loss of any type and is limitless-apramEya. These words can be given to jiva in a limited way only and is said so only because the jiva is the reflection. ”

Another line of thought:

If any proposesthat ,if not all these dehas but somewhere if there is a body which will not perish, then to that the answers comes ‘anta vanta ime deha…’

Those who have “deha”‘s which have the roop word ‘to be nourished-diha upachaya” will definitely perish . There is no question of a person who has a created body which needs to be nourished in some to survivie anywhere ever.

Then there is one more objection-The word nityasya has been said with respect of the ‘jiva’ and the second line has “anaashi aprameyasya”  is again said.If this is so then would not it have “puraukti dosha” ? To that Jayatheerhtaru has said, “One most observe that the word ‘nitya’ is more a visheshana for the jiva here and the other two words are for Paramatma. “He is the one who is anAshi in all forms, that is even his body is deathless and He is immeasurable and infinite. So the jiva who is “nitya” obtains its existence by the grace of Paramatma and is the pratibimba of Paramatma.

Next, if the deha is anitya how is the soul nitya?

To that also this verse is the answer. Since the jiva which is the pratibimba of Paramatma if we consider the deha to be the mirror then would not the destruction of the body destroy the soultoo? To that Madhwacharyaru has emphasised that the pratibimba is mirrored in the mirror which is the swaroopa of the jiva itself. The medium of reflection is itself eternal. The word ,”shareerinah” clearly shows that this affection of having persihable form is excluded for Paramatma.

Next the two adjectives for Paramatma -“anaashi” and Aprameya can aslo be used for the jiva in the sense of being like that Paramatma who is “anAshi” and “apramEya” . For example A courageous man maybe referred to ,as a lion. What a lion of a man! But this does not mean the man is the lion but that the man is having some qualities similar to the lion.

 

Chap 2.16

nAsatO vidyate bhAvah nAbhAvO vidyate satah

ubhayOrapi dhrishTontastvanayOstatva darshibih

Just as I am all the time existing as nitya, then in the same way you are also nitya has been said ,”natvevAham….”

Is there any other thing that is nitya? This is the question handled in this verse. It is having many possible interpretations and has been misinterpreted plenty.

What are the other objects that are nitya?

asataha bhaavaha na vidyate  – M Bhaashya – It is the statement that Primodial matter is eternal. It may not be visible or perceivable but it is definitely existing.

sataha abhaavah na vidyate- Satvaachaka is Paramatma-flawless infinite Supreme and there is no question of His non-existence at any time or place.

The other meaning given in the tatparya is that for every good action there is good and for every bad action there is no bad

Gita Vivrutti – At one time in the first chapter Arjuna talks and lamentsthat if he carries through this war and kiils his relatives 1.36 , (pApamEva aashrayet” ,he will be the receipeint of a lot of papa. There is a answer to that doubt in this. “He says ,” that since the Atataayi’s are being killed, it is a good action and the law is that no bad can happen from good.” So he has not to worry about killing Bheeshma and others too. So there is no need for you to be enguled in doubt or grief about your actions being bad. They are not bad and will not bring bad results.

sat- olle kelasu , asat- ketta kelaasa. The statement by Rayaru is that “From good actions no bad results or “abhaava”-dukha can result-vidyate. from badactions “bhaava”-sukha will not result-na vidyate. He gives proof is given 17.26 BG says ,’satbhAva sAdhubhAva iti yetat prayujyati…..” The word sat implies good work only. One more proof given by Acharyaru based on the shabda nirnaya which is text on the etymology of words. Two proofs have been quoted for this meaning by Acharyaru.

Then if one asks why should this particular was be a good karma. Then it is replied that all those who are haters of Narayana (narayana dwiT) and those who support them are the opposing army and hence killing them will not result in bad karma or papa. This is the Agama pramana for this.

There is also the sampradaya pramana for this which speaks of the good actions passing from guru to shishya and so on which has come down through the ages.

 

Chapter 2.12

natvevAham jAtunAsam na tvam na ime janAdipaH

na chaiva na bhavishyAmah sarve vayamatah param   2.12

whatever Arujuna had been saying is totally not acceptable to those who are knowledgable.  Asam- iruvudu, existences. It never happened that I did not exist. That implies that I have  existed eternally. So also You as well as these kings assembled here. The future tense is also clarified by the word ‘bhavishyaamah”

Two ways of branching this argument.

Consider this :If there are  no two different things as deha and atma? If one says both are same then one has to establish that they are not same and they are two different entities If you take otherwise then whenever the deha is destroyed then the atma would also be destroyed so all Arjuna’s arguments may be valid. But as per the shastras this does not hold good and it can be established; Both are different and they are two different entities. On what basis to we say this ? When we consider our own expereince , we say ,” My hand is aching, My stomach is rumbling etc we talk about the body and the parts of the body as of they belong to us. Just as we say ,”This is my pot.” “My phone was stolen.” This argument is not just from the shastras but also because of our own experience.

Even if we accept body and soul are different. Then too there is one more question. We can put forth the argument that it is formed when the body is formed and gets destroyed together with the body itself. For this also there is proof to establish that the above hypothesis is not true based on the agamas and expereince also. For example: there are many incidents of the soul leaving the body and coming back in a few minutes, there are incidents of memories of rebirth beyond doubt.

Again there can be one more argument that the soul may be existing for a longer time and may occupy a few bodies and then perish. For this we need the support of the shastra to establish that the soul is eternal.

With this line of thought Krishna examines the reason for Arjuna’s grief and says , “That Are you sad because the bodies which your relatives occupy are perishing or because the souls are perishing. In that case he replies in two ways to answer these two.

He first handles the second part, In case you are sad because the souls are perishing then please know that souls do not perish. He tells him,”Know that there was never a time that I did not exist, nor you nor these kings. This is true even in the future. This makes it clear that Krishna knows about the eixstence of everyone and is explaining this giving an example of His own existence. Krishna uses a double negative to emphasise his point.

He clearly talks of the beginningless and the endlessness of the existence of the soul. The present tense is already understood as it is the experience of Arjuna and others that they are eixsting. There is no need for any statements for that. It is just one’s own experience that one exists.

What is the pramana for this nityatva of the soul?

Shruthi pramana for this =- KatakOpanishad – nityO nityAnAm

Among all the nityas He is nitya. Then they clarify that all other souls may have deha nasha but they do not have swaroopa naasha . Further He is the cause for the existence of others.

We see that the birth and death happen all the time. So what is actually birth? It is called “deha yoga”Birth is the relationship that we are given with a particular body, And death is the removal of this attachment or relationship to the body.

For Hari there is not deha nasha , He never has a perishable body at any time. During avataras also He appears in whatever form He wishes but it is always His own swaroopa . His appearances ar eall His own forms and non-different from His moola roopa.

na cha eva — The anaaditva and nityatva are established using this ‘cha’ shabda.

na tu even aham jAtam —- Paramatmanige yavattu naasha villa . This puts Him in a special class. To differentiate that Paramatma’s existence is not dependent on anything or anyone.

The Brahma sutras also reveal that Paramatma does not have birth or death.

It is clear that there is birth for Paramatma. Because there is no logical statement in the entire canon of Vedic literature which are apourusheya and are considered to be free from flaws.

There is one more sutra which tackles one more argument . If one says “If there is no sentence in the shastras about His birth or death then why should we think that it is correct.” For that we have to see the words which says ,’ nityo nityaanam” menaing He is always existing. For one who exists always there is no question of not existing at any time.

 

Firs

  1. W
  2. Gita vivrithi ….
  3. na jAtu aham na Asam

Chapter 2 Shlokas 6

Continuing from the fifth shloka .. gurUn ahatva……

Arjuna says ,”The possibility of killing the guruas and enjoying its blood stained pleasures seems quite abominable to me. It does not bring me any other world fruits neither does it appeal to me to loose them in this world. I think it is better to beg for alms for my sustenance instead.”

tEshan hanane – Killing them accrues not only paralOka dukha but also in this world .

iha eva- in this world itself . arta kAmAn – who are desirious of the wealth and power gurun- those guru who are so desirious  then it is like sitting on the throne which they aspired for, to enjoy the pleasures that they aspired for . It is really terrible to think of this, it is much worse than the paraloka dukha that may accrue to such a cruel deed. This is the thought process.

Arjuna then proceed to cement his argument for not fighting the war ,foreseeing any further questions compelling him to fight.

So the next shloka gives further reasons

na cha etat vidmaha kataranno gariyo yadvA na jayeyaa yadi vA n0 jayeyuh

yAnEva hatva na jijIvishAmah tE avastitaha pramukhe dhArtharashtra

” We do not know what is outcome of the war. We are not sure that even after killing all the gurus accepting that whatsoever papa may come ,let it come then also it still remains that we are not sure of winning the war even after killing.

naha – askmaakam namage

kataram –

kim nAma which is this

gariya – adhika taram bigger in terms of desirabilty or bigger in terms of probability

The two outcomes he lists are  1) of us winning over them 2) they winning over us

Then he continues that in both cases we are the loosers . In both cases we loose because the first option has already been handled in previous verse. So the jaya is actually paraajaya only.

It is because winning the war can be done only when we kill off all the sons of Dhritishtra and then too it is a loss for us . It seems like Arjuna is attached to Dhaartharaashtraan . Then one way to interpret is that they are after all my cousins, Secondly those who stand with my cousins include my gurus etc , so I would have to kill all them to win the war which is not acceptable to me.

The next verse -7

kArpanya dOsha- Rayaru explains that this defect is “krupanata dOsha” means it is not a proper attitude of mind.

abhibuTa – concealed well and truly

The courage of Arjuna has been clouded completely with this “krupanatah dOsha” .

Why has it happpened ? He himself answers it saying ,”I have been deluded . samyak mooDa  in the path of Dharma. In other words he says ,” I am not able to decide which is dharma and which is adharma.

sandigda chEtah – here the mind is explained as the seat of all doubts.

He says that  “yasya saha ” mean he who is in such a situation

prichchAmi – asking a quesiton of you

yat shreyah syaat- which is the better of option for me . The two options were listed by Arjuna in verse 5 – 1) begging alms 2)waging the war

He tells Krishna to come to a decision and then tell him what he should do. He surrenders

to Krishna seeking “shAdi – shikshe – means teaching” tvAm prapaanam – surrender to you.